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November 27, 2006

Ted Haggard's Lesson

Greg N. on January 11, 2007 07:08 PM EST writes:
Good point, Fr. Rich. I used to think people like K. Warnecke and evangelicals like Ted Haggard believe sexuality is a choice because they don't understand homosexual atraction. Maybe they understand it very well!!

I believe sexual orientation is a matter of birth, not choice, because I happen to be straight and remember going through puberty. One day I starting having these powerful sexual feelings about girls, and I'd develop all-consuming crushes. But I never had these feelings about guys. There was no "choice" for me to make. That's just how I was born.

But maybe people like K. Warnecke insist sexuality is a choice because for them it really is! They have the same sexual desire for both men and women, and thus they believe they have to chose (unless they embrace bisexuality).

The mistake they make, as you say, is that they universalize their predicament! They don't realize that there are people born gay and only gay, just as there are people born straight and only straight.
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Fr. Rich on January 11, 2007 04:39 PM EST writes:
K. Warnecke:

First, why are you comparing gay people with child molesters and serial killers?

The truth is people are born with all sorts of orientations, dispositions, aptitudes, talents. It's bred in the bone, so to speak, genetic.

Here's a thought, using your logic: If all gay people choose to be gay, then don't all white people choose to be white, all black people choose to be black? All naturally gifted pianists choose to be naturally gifted pianists? Show me a savant who chose to be a savant. I'd love to learn how they did it.

On the other hand, maybe you are equally attracted to both sexes and have merely made a choice. But that's not the way most of us are.
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K. Warnecke on January 11, 2007 04:23 PM EST writes:
Whose lesson?

Who really needs to learn from the Haggard demise, but Haggard himself (and those like him). Hypocrisy is nothing new. Read the new testament. Don't even read the Bible, and you can find hypocrisy all over the globe. Just because a person is an outright hypocrite, it does not negate the truth. The Bible emphatically denounces sin, in many forms: fornication, adultery, murder, malice, homosexuality, and so much more. We cannot alter the text to fit our own liking.

Here's a thought: If a person is born "gay," then a person must also be born a "child molester" or a "serial killer" or a ...just fill in the blank. Why condemn a cildren molester? He's just born that way, right? The truth is, we are all warped in mind and spirit, and we need Salvation--Jesus Christ is our only hope for our depraved state.
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Fr. Rich on December 4, 2006 05:30 PM EST writes:
Bible not perfect

I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible is wrong about a lot of things, homosexuality included. I don't believe the universe was created in seven days. I don't believe rebellious children should be stoned to death, as another poster notes the Old Testament says.

Every person who opens the Bible believes certain things they read and not others. Even Floorhor, unless he's for stoning disobedient children. Why? Because the Bible is confusing about some things and wrong about others. For example, Matt, Mark and Luke say Jesus was arrested after Passover. John says he was arrested before Passover. Which was it? And Paul, who believed homosexuality is a sin, also believed Jesus would return during his lifetime (1 Thess Chap 4, v 15 thru 17). Oops!

Floorhor's adultery riff could be used to argue for gay marriage. If legalized monogamy (marriage) is good for families and society, then we hurt families and society by denying gay people the right to legally commit to each other.
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mary Beth Crain on December 4, 2006 04:13 PM EST writes:
To Amanoffaith:

I think that before you make yourself the big spokesperson for "repentence," you should learn how to spell it. It is "repentance." I am so tired of idiots and illiterates who think they're smart just because they've swallowed the Bible hook, line and sinker and can now go out preaching. Go inside yourself, take a good, long look at your own flaws (one of which might be obnoxious arrogance) and spend your time on self-improvement instead of judging others. And learn how to spell while you're at it!
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Jay Tinkerton on December 4, 2006 12:29 PM EST writes:
It ain't one book

Whenever I read commentary that refers to "The Bible" as if it is one single monolithic book, as if it just popped out of "the mind of God" so many years ago, I know I'm reading from someone who has read zero about the historical origins of the scriptures. These are MANY books written over MANY different times and various historical and cultural context. The Canon was hand-picked by those in political power at one time or another. Really, scary, but true.

I think it is an ill-informed mistake to assume that you can distill a single ethic out of "The" Bible and apply it to contemporary life.

Or if you can, then you are actually perfoming a bit of cafeteria intepretation yourself. For example Leviticus says a lot about who shall lie with whom, but Jesus says "Love thy neighbor."

So what to do, what to do...!

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Floorhor on December 4, 2006 12:13 PM EST writes:
Cafeteria Style Bible Belief

There are very few Christians that would say it is ok for a man to commit adultery against his wife. Everyone recognizes the destruction this has on the family, society, and humanity. The bible speaks clearly on this matter, but you can find men out there who will say that they just have it in them not to be 'satisfied' by one woman.

Let's face it, adultery is just one piece of flesh rubbing up against another piece of flesh. That's no biggie right? So why does God care about this? How dare God interfere in the way I am and who I rub up against!

So, if God chooses to stick His nose into sexuality by controling whose flesh I rub up against, why is it an out of hand assumption that He would not speak against one man rubbing his flesh up against another man's?

You can't have your 'God doesn't speak about homosexulality' cake and eat it ('He does speak against adultery too' cake) too!!

Why is one right, and the other not?

Peace...
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Eloise on December 3, 2006 02:17 AM EST writes:
Is Amanoffaith crazy? Child molesters are criminals! Who cares how nice and loving and considerate they may seem? Lock them up!

Unfortunately, I don't see what any of this has to do with homosexuality.
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Julia M. on December 2, 2006 03:50 PM EST writes:
Amonofaith: Oh, come now. Shining Light isn't the only person on this thread who has experienced God's love. You certainly have! After all, how many of us could claim, as you do, to actually "know child molestors who were nice, loving, and considerate"?

Let's face it, when it comes to child molestors, most of us can't see beyond the pedophilia. We wouldn't give a child molestor the time of day. Not you. Not only have you been able to withhold judgment on these otherwise universally reviled people, you've gotten to know them well enough to recognize their noble qualities--to see the beauty they possess inside. I don't think even Jesus broke bread with child molestors. At least the Gospels don't say he did... Talk about love!
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amanoffaith on December 2, 2006 02:29 PM EST writes:
It appears the only one here recently who has experienced God's love is shining light, and that is a shame.
Its not me who judges one of you, but the bible does. Just like the workers of darkness then who wanted to kill Jesus; now they want to hurt his disciples. Whoppee. What a suprise that is. Think how peverse our society has become. The so called straight people just want to live together while the gay crowd want to get married.
I don't care if any one likes the truth or not. Christ did not condemn one person he caught doing wrong, but offered a way out through love, repentence, and a way to break the chains of darkness. Jesus layed his life down for His friends because He loved them. Even though He knew persecution would come He said be of good cheer I have over come the world. Each of us can become over comers of sin, darkness, and lies. We do not have to accept second best, but we can have the best. Through realizing we are sinners, repentence, and living for Jesus.
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Shining Light on December 2, 2006 02:14 PM EST writes:
Pastor Jimbo and Amanoffaith

Thank you for speaking the truth no matter how difficult it is for some to hear. The non-believers will probably attack you just as Jesus and Paul and the other first Christians were when they spoke THE WORD OF GOD. But remain stedfast knowing you have God on your team. I especially thank Pastor Jimbo for quoting SCRIPTURE. This Web Site doesn't do that which means it doesn't serve HIS KINGDOM and anything that doesn't serve HIS KINGDOM serve's the Enemys.

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10: 33-34.
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Pastor Jimbo on December 2, 2006 01:05 PM EST writes:
I have to side against Jay with my Brothers in Christ on this one. As amonoffaith says, either the Bible is true, or it isn't. Whether you like it or not, Biblical morality is black and white. Never grey. This means that:

Menstruating women are sinful (Leviticus 15)

Women who aren't virgins on their wedding nights must be stoned to death (Duet. 22:23-24)

Stubborn and rebellious children should be stoned to death (Deut. 22: 13-21)

People who work on the Lord's day deserve the death penalty (Num. 15: 32-56)

Those who blaspheme against the King of Israel must be stoned to death (1 Kings 21:10), which in our Christian nation means blaspheming against President Bush.

Witches and wizards should be killed (Leviticus 20:27)

Jay, if you would simply confess your sins and accept Jesus Christ into your heart, you would understand this.

I pray for your soul.

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Jay Tinkerton on December 2, 2006 11:13 AM EST writes:
One Break Coming Up...!

One Break Coming Up...!

Here's your break: The "Bible" isn't just one thing to be truth or not to be truth. It would kind of be like going to the local library and declaring in the lobby "This Library has either truthful books or it doesn't!" Err, some books contradict other books. They were written at completely different times. Also, "whose Bible?" some books were excluded (umm, by certain politically-powerful people at the time).

Try Googling "Council of Nicea"

Oh, and remember King James as in "The King James Version?" Try Googling "King James" and Gay.

There's your break. The chance to learn something new!
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amanoffaith on December 2, 2006 04:34 AM EST writes:
Oh, please give me a break.

Either the bible is the truth or it isn't. There is no in between.
I've happened to know child molestors who were nice, loving, and considerate. Are they born with their affliction?
The bible says not to touch the unclean thing. And Christ said be of good cheer I have over come the world.
Christ has more then enough power for any one of us to stop any particular sin. Any.
Modern evangelism wants to be all inclusive. Hah!
It is a matter of repentence, and breaking the chains of darkness. Either salvation works or it doesn't. Well, I know for sure it does work. Christ helped me to over come depression which I was biologically from birth tormented with. But through desire of repentence, prayer, and relying on Him I've over come that. Jesus will help any one over come any thing even sin. Even the sin of being gay.
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Weiwen Ng on December 1, 2006 10:55 PM EST writes:
Pastor Cornwall, thank you very much for engaging in this process of reflection and listening.

Aaron, you are absolutely right, just because someone is born one way doesn't make it right. Some are born alcoholics for whom abstinence is the only way to be healthy. However, I've met gay couples who love and care for each other and love God as well. Based on their testimonies, I've come to decide that it's not a sin to be gay, or to be sexually active and gay, per se.

I have argued repeatedly elsewhere that we cannot idolize our Scriptures. Read them the wrong way and they justify slavery, violence against women, genocide. Go read the story of Lot, where he offers to let the Sodomites rape his daughters, and gets away scot free for that. We need to take a long, hard look at our Scriptures. Notions of Biblican inerrancy must go.

weiwentg.blogspot.com
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Fr. Richard on December 1, 2006 04:11 PM EST writes:
Good point, Jay. Aaron concedes that, in effect, God creates some people with a same-sex orientation. What should be less clear to all of us, however, is what are God's standard for sexual behavior--either for gays or straights. Sure, human law, or in this case conservative religious dictates, define acceptable dos and donts for gays and straights. The big difference is, allowances are made for some forms of straight sexual activity but none whatsoever for gay sexuality. Doesn't that seem to conflict with God's design (ie, creating gay people)?

Otherwise, not only would God have to be a homophobe, but a sadist, as well.

But I think we're putting to much focus on God, a being that we can know virtually nothing about just by definition. It'd be a much better use of our time and energy to carefully reexamine what WE have decided are God's standards for sexuality.
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Jay Tinkerton on December 1, 2006 02:39 PM EST writes:
God's standard for sex?

How do you determine "God's standard for sex?" I guess I've never seen that fully presented in a way that didn't seem to impose biases from other (human) historical or social contexts.

Thanks, I'm eager to hear!

_jay
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Aaron on December 1, 2006 02:29 PM EST writes:
Have to think

In thinking through this issue I can definitely accept that Homosexuals are born and not made. Then I think about myself as a heterosexual...born as one who challenges God's standard for sex in my own mind daily...just because one is born with something doesnt make it any less a sin.
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the bloke on November 28, 2006 04:09 AM EST writes:
Yes, indeed, it is time we talk

Thank you for this post. I applaud you for so eloquently articulating the need for us evangelicals to engage our culture in more concrete and transparent ways and to realize that God's grace is so much greater than our discomforts.
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